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“What gets measured, gets managed” – dieser Spruch war für meinen heutigen Gast wegbereitend. Michel Lundell ist IT-Spezialist, lebt in Schweden und erkrankte als Erwachsener an Epilepsie.
Nach der initialen Diagnose nahm Michel erst Medikamente. Doch nachdem sein Arzt die Dosis weiter erhöhen wollte, diese Medikamente aber mit schweren Nebenwirkungen verbunden sind, schlug Michel dem Arzt vor, ob er nicht eine ketogene Diät versuchen könnte.
Seit 2012 ernährt sich Michel ketogen und ist Anfallsfrei. Da er sich nicht jeden Tag in den Finger stechen wollte um die Ketonwerte zu messen, entwickelte er das ersten Gerät um Aceton (Ketonkörper) in der Atemluft zu messen. Der Ketonix ist mittlerweile gut erprobt und ein Non Invasive Class I Medical Device, registered at FDA (US) and Läkemedelsverket (SE).
Das Interview ist auf Englisch und Michel zeigt eine kurze Präsentation der Daten und Funktionsweise von Ketonix.
Hinweis: Das Transkript wurde maschinell erstellt und noch nicht komplett Korrektur gelesen. Wir wollten euch aber so schnell als möglich auch eine Text-Version zur Verfügung stellen.
Julia Tulipan: [00:00:00] Michel welcome to the do the podcast of the evolution radio show. Thank you for being here and sharing your insights with us.
Michel Lundell: [00:00:11] Thank you very much.
Julia Tulipan: [00:00:13] I'm delighted. Before we start we start to talk about the device to keep tonics and how breath ketones work. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself your background and what got you interested in the ketogenic diet.
Michel Lundell: [00:00:34] So my name is Michel and. I come from the Swedish. West Coast. Just below Gothenburg I am where I was an I.T. architect or I.T. Security penetration tester. I am a mechanical engineer. I am a certified kite surfing instructor and certified keto paleo nutritionist. I got a few cards in my sleep. So about. 2006 I got a seizure a grand mal seizure and they detected a tumor in my brain or what they thought was a tumor. And. This was it took about one year before they said it's just it's just a you know. It's not a tumor it's something else it's a it's some kind of damage very close to a center that controls. So after this year I was cleared and. Then eight years later I got another year but then I. Had epilepsy and. I got drugs this simple hep C but it changed my personal. Behavior. My personality. So I had to find something else than the medication. Based on medication. And. It's a nightmare to have. So. I. Made my research and found the eugenic diet was working for people with epilepsy and I wanted to try this. So I spoke with my nutritional neurologist and said I want to quit the medication and try the time. So he challenged me to be cautious and. Didn't know really what it was. So. So I tried. Green sticks and blood measures and. And. So and I got into ketosis and messy when he said it's ok can change the medication to to diet. He. Thought I must find. A Life's hell that can keep me in ketosis and to do that have to measure a lot. So that is why I started to research how can I measure that I am in ketosis. And that's how I got into breath analysis.
Julia Tulipan: [00:03:48] Is there anything been out there then when you started your research about breath analysis.
Michel Lundell: [00:03:57] There was some research papers that were indicating that that has Bertone say it's a good indication of ketosis. There were no devices available. So that's why I made one for myself and I I came in contact with. A doctor call which name is Andreas. In fact. It's known as the diet doctor and he told me that while this is a great device not only for people epilepsy but also with people with diabetes cancer and all these other NASA's. That might have a metabolic. Source. So it's actually him who said that this whole thing about these make products or something to help other people. Yeah. So 2013 I just put it out on on on on the web. Version which was very simple just for LEDs nothing else on. The demand just first summer. So I had to quit my job. Just doing this now.
Julia Tulipan: [00:05:26] Mm hmm.
Julia Tulipan: [00:05:31] Was it very difficult to to find a way to measure the the air breath ketones since there was nothing out there. Did you have anything to to build on. Or I can imagine that it's very difficult to make such a prototype. What was your initial basis for the device.
Michel Lundell: [00:05:59] Well I had a lot of data and experience with both. You read strips and blood tests. So. What I did was that that I I know how to get myself in and out of ketosis in different ways. So I did that a lot and trying. To correlate the sensor to to the green stage and to the. Issues. So that's where I started. That's the ballpark I started and then now a twelve five six years later I got machines that I can. Actually make sure that the acetone more accurately than I could at that time. But it's it's really not. So that being the actual number. You get. The most interesting part where with measuring ketosis is to see the 10. My my question what is.
Julia Tulipan: [00:07:10] It. I can imagine that it's quite difficult to. Or to just make such a product. I think it's was it. How did you. How did you find someone you can trust build it yourself. So how did you find something. What was it difficult to find someone helping your building this first. Product. The first prototype. Or.
Michel Lundell: [00:07:39] No I. I made it all by myself. Really. Yeah. So I did. I designed the electrical circuits I designed. Uh the actual look of it. I designed the software with the net the software on the piece they on the phone on the. On the web server designed the AIDS site design well everything everything from the cables to the sensor to the diagrams you can see how so. Firstly I did it for myself so I as somebody to do it. So I had to do it myself. An. Engineer. So. My my motto is like how hard can it be. All this time I said this before I give up and well I'm a mechanical engineer so I had to read a lot of work to get electrical and the sense for things to work. But once I had that going let us know what the issues really hit to. Me a light ten hours to make make one device. In the beginning I had to make the sprint print the circuit boards and did myself and then sold it and tested. Well it took a long time.
Michel Lundell: [00:09:27] So I learnt a lot in the process. But could could one say I could and that it works a little bit like an alcohol breath test.
[00:09:42] You know. It does. Yeah. Yeah.
Julia Tulipan: [00:09:48] OK. OK. You have prepared a presentation.
[00:09:56] I think we changed to do the presentation and you're sharing your screen with us and telling us a little bit more about Red ketones how they work or how are you. How are the key tonics works and how. One would. Use it to. In everyday life and how to interpret their results.
[00:10:21] Yes. OK. Yes. Can you see the screen. Yes.
[00:10:29] You can just make a full screen of this. OK. So.
[00:10:38] Or I have epilepsy and I had it for life so I I know I had to be in ketosis to lower the risk to having seizures. I don't want to get in having a seizure while driving on the autobahn with my family or something. So I really need a lifestyle. Until my ketosis and know how ketosis works for me I had to measure often. That's why. I said I invented this. It's not only me that. Told me that that needs tells us I mean ketosis is good for a lot of reasons. These two reasons is tied to the effects of this diet. Here. For example if you if you're getting to ketosis you have a low blood sugar. And that is. That is the reasons why maybe diabetes and cancer. Patients wants to be in ketosis because diabetes they burn off the fat from the liver liver and they they they get a lower blood sugar which means they need less insulin and cancer. They starve their cancer cells and. For those who want. Fat burning they want to have been high ketosis all the time. It's to get rid of the insulin resistance by by using the fat in the liver. And of course these who do sports they want to be lean to weigh less and have more muscle compared to due to the total mass they get faster. And stronger. And weight loss people they were. They also want fat burning. People will want ketones. They are. That's more brain issues. I mean it's like epilepsy. Parkinson mind Orman's HD is the narcolepsy Alzheimer. All these are after the ketones we need ketones for our brains to keep it calm to keep us focused. To have a high performance why when we using the brain then is that the hormones there is there's hospitals and clinics in the US. That they're that dusted a diet for. For. Women. To want to become pregnant. So there is a lot of reasons and there is a lot. And effects that is important to know when it gets into this. Ketogenic diet and measuring ketones so I just wanted to go through this catch Janice's what happening because that is how I found out to make my device. And if I look up to the genesis on the net I will see that that is when fatty acids is metabolized in the liver. To the first primary kit done a C to acetate fatty acids yes in metabolized in the liver to a C to hesitate. And this a C to acetate. Is a building block for ATP which is energy. That's fine from the C to acetate created when you burn Fats. Acetone is released. While this is happening you're using fatty acids to create ketones and energy. You will get acetone. Acetone mainly get out of your body by the breath a very small part is metabolized in the liver. But the main part is going out to your breath so it's. Protected waste from this process. That's important the excess a C to a state that is that is. Created. Is stored as it had dropped mutilate in the blood. So why is it stored in the blood. Yes because it can be. Re. Converted back into a C to acetate and generate energy for your brain or for your heart or muscle. The pitch will actually look like this. This is the genesis process feeling that assets. Create. A seed acetate in the liver which can be used for energy. From the C to acetate acetone is released and released out of your body by the breath. Excess state as a state that is not just a buffer in the blood to be used as easily accessible energy. OK. Now how do we get fatty acids into the liver. If we have a low blood sugar and low insulin. That will trigger glucagon to be released it signals to the fatty adipose tissue to release fatty acids which is convert it into a C to acetate. This is what many people want because that means that your adipose fat. Is born into energy. OK. How do we get is low blood sugar and low insulin. Well we could exercise that is one way to do it. That will burn energy that will burn sugar in your muscles. Sugar in your glycogen storage and we can also eat a low carb food because that that doesn't raise insulin and that it has very little if any glucose so low carb food is also one way to have to get low blood sugar and low insulin. However very important thing is that low carb food is also fatty. So that will also. Released fatty acid into your bloodstream. So even if you eat this then the body will probably switch from. The body fat stores into the food you've just eaten to create I see two acetate now there is another way to get ketones that is to eat medium chain triglycerides like coconut oil. My attracted by that is also a high a potent way. So. There is that that that is actually going more straight to the liver and it creates acetone that has a C to acetate acetone. Did the drugs be created very quickly. This is the process I was looking at and measuring. Beat approximate rate. I had done that and I've been I've been. Looking for C to acetate in my brain. And. Acetone there were no device. But. As I saw if I can get hold of a sensor story that can sense acetone and I can blow into this I will immediately see. When. At the acid is broken down into ketones in my body. So the different methods is that to measure ketones is urine blood and bread and grain is that is excess ketones in the adaptation face body is not used to the ketones and is not as good to convert them into the beta drugs of beauty rate in the blood. So it spills over into the urine. After the care to adaptation Phase I and many other. Have seen that the blood ketones are the preferred way to use to store XDR ketones breath. That is a more real time indication of breakdown of fatty acids into ketones. So if I eat something I can detect that within 15 minutes. What's happening if I have Sarah blood ketones and eat something I might not detected until I've been eating this for for a long time or something because it's hands on if you use energy or not. But it's very complicated to actually even look at. I see blood ketones is only relevant to shake if you are type 1. Use it for. Weight loss or or anything else. It's it's a waste of money. So. What is the correlation between blood and breath. Because the level of blood ketones depends on how much excess ketone energy that is produced how much of that you have used and how well you can use it. There is. Intelligent people like Martin Kendall that runs up dinner optimized nutrition dot com that have looked at this and an according to his research. High blood ketones is not what you want when. You want. You want blood ketones in the range of 0 2 to 1 or something like zero point five because then you actually can use your. Blood ketones. If you cannot use blood ketones you can issue and that is worse. So blood ketones it's a buffer. It can be anything from zero to two to three four or five at any time. And it's just a place it is actually not better than looking at urine strips. Your level of breath ketones. That depends on how much your body breaks down fatty acids into ketones as C2 acetate. So. If you take this together I would say the correlation is that the higher breath ketone level you have. The higher level of blood ketones could be formed unless you use the so if you have issues using them you might always have high blood ketones. Maybe you are almost type 1 diabetic or you have a very high level of blood sugar. That means that it inhibits the formation of energy H which is. It makes the ratio of energy plus to energy H unfavorable. For using. The blood count was low. Low blood ketones and high blood ketones that will ensure that you are healthy and are using that as fuel as efficient as possible. So if in blood samples you can say that low Sotero or low value means that you are. Out of stock. Regarding that kid could still be in ketosis or you may be out of ketosis because you have used that ketones so significant value if you have a value. Have some blood ketones. That means you are or have been in ketosis or you are could also have had some exogenous ketones and the difference to two breath sample is zero or low value means that you're low in ketosis. You're out of work low in ketosis as a value means that you are in ketosis and your blood sugar and insulin levels are low enough to trigger ketosis. A better a better measure of ketosis than blood ketones because. Acetone doesn't exist. If you don't use fat as pure. Now if can go to testing. This is interesting because you can test food you can test no food. You can test fasting. You can test different types of exercise. If you test food. Then you might need some understanding of how your body metabolize. Food. It's different foods do different things to you but they and. You see the reaction and. You have to think about what's happening. No testing exercise. That's almost the same. You need to understand how the muscle cells metabolize different fuels. If you use fat as fuel when you're doing your exercise or if you do X if you if you're actually using the sugar in you in your glycogen stores assuming that is different and different exercise. Use different. Portions of pure movement. I will make some examples here but generally you should measure. Often exercise to be at least one after the training because most exercise will actually create a response from your body to create glucose that inhibit any any good ulcers. The best way I would say to test it also is to adopt something I call a baseline approach. I will always show an example of this. So there is a test added on on NCT coconut cream. That I got at a low carb in Deutschland. In 2018. And I mentioned first I had a bass line here. The first three measures then I 8 10 grams of this coconut cream and I could see a high response in my ketones. So this four measures of the there they are within 20 minutes I create a huge race in my ketones. It was a breath. Yes. This is this. Then I see that the ketone levels were well below my my starting point. They were that for an hour or two before they got up into the same level of ketosis I was before I tested this food. OK. That means that. During this time my ketosis was decreasing because of the high. Generation of ketones from this city. So between T1 and T2 I was sort of out of ketosis and running on the ketones that was created. Between teeth. T 0 t 1. Yeah. That's how you could interpret testing of ketogenic food for example to see how much time that ketones created in the first place are lasting you. The second example I have is also about ketones exogenous ketones I just that two years back. In bed. And. As you see here I don't get a response in the beginning. I don't get a high breath ketone but are value from from blinking exogenous ketones. And that is because you are not you. It doesn't run the process backwards. Breaking the end product of keto Genesis doesn't increase fat burning. It adds the end product to your system. So what's happening is that rapidly after I drank this sex. It's genius ketones Mike tells is dropped like a stone or six hours. This was not huge. Was only a small glass of exogenous ketones. I think it was it. That kept me out of ketosis for six hours so people thinking that if I drink ketones exogenous ketones I get into ketosis. I would say no. Yeah. That that is not what's happening. If your definition of ketosis is blood ketones yes you will have a higher level of blood ketones. But that doesn't mean that your body is using fat as fuel. It just means that your level of blood ketones have rise. Even so today that there was an article on that on the net about fasting mimicking diet. I would eat something but they would it would be so little that they actually mimicked fasting. And the funny thing is that diet included extra genus ketones and I mean it's crazy. Why. Why do you if you want the first thing benefits. Why do you add this energy into the system. I think the use of exogenous ketones is for athletes. You need to really screen or heavy lifting or stuff like that. It's not for normal people that want to have endurance have the health benefits that come from from from ketones. That is not the way to do it. There might be some neurological diseases that. Help you. Get through maybe seizures maybe there are other issues. Normal healthy people. I think this exogenous ketones is oh it's not for normal people.
[00:32:50] No I totally agree on that. But just to summarize what we see in the in the slide in the actor this is life now is. The moment. You. Eat those exogenous ketones. I see the acetate decreased because. There were no no no fat burning happening ever no no. Yeah using ketones for energy.
[00:33:30] From the energy came from from the blood ketones.
[00:33:33] The energy came from the uh from the exogenous ketones. And that. That's why your breath ketones decreased because there wasn't there was no need to break down. I see to it a C to ascertain. Exactly.
[00:33:57] So a better way. If you don't think about what's happening I mean in this you have to understand the process and stuff like that. A better way. To to actually. Assess your your ketones is to make a baseline you may shoot itself during during a week. OK. I am every day in the mornings lunch the evening or something. And then you do a change. Though the next week you do what you will. For example you start you're doing. Maybe you go running to do strength training or you skip a meal or you. You change your meal plan. Give you do something else and you make yourself morning lunch and evening. And then you can look at the diagrams and you can see well the trend is. It's. Much higher ketosis. Well I'm doing this. Or maybe if you do something that doesn't fit you then maybe you are allergic to to to dairy products or something else or eggs. Sorry. I don't know. Then that friend might not be. Positive. Maybe it's it's negative. OK. This lifestyle change is not good. If you make a lifestyle changes you'd miss yourself and then you could say well this lifestyle change actually makes me burn more fat. Or have more ketones. Yeah. Well when I stopped cream in my coffee. I raised my my. Average about 10p.m. everyday. So it was a real change. Every day I could see that milk protein is probably not very good for me it. Triggers insulin here. So then one could try for example the boring. Thing to exclude any wine or alcohol during the weeks that will also increase the ketosis so a better way to look at this is to see the trend not the actual value. OK. Because the the ketosis is varying a lot during the day. It's it's probably the lowest mass you have during the day. But because of your technique you cannot compare it to somebody else. You had to know to make your own baseline. My body works. And that to the next week to see does this change. Make it better. OK. So is there also a difference between people who are eating a ketogenic diet already for a long time or between people who are just starting so.
[00:37:31] Do they. Do they have. Hire a little bit like in the urine. Is there a difference though is there a change in your ED A more adapted to a ketogenic diet and that the levels would decrease. Or is is it stable what. What we have seen and in our large database we have now is that.
[00:37:59] A common pattern is that when you start out dire. You actually get quite high levels of ketones because your your muscles isn't used to using fat as fuel so they raise the blood pressure glucose and when glucose is not available what if you use ketones. So in the beginning for many people the ketone levels are very high. And then after a few weeks it weeks. And that's when the challenge starts how can you keep this ketone levels up. So that's when the fun starts to bind too far and your lifestyle. That works for you. Yeah. So. If we look at. What levels should you have that that is a very common questions I get. What number should I get. And that is there is no magic number. It's more like the higher number you have. The more healthier maybe you eat meat higher. Kids Jinich creation of foods or are doing fasting or your exercise. All this. All this together will actually raise your ketone level. So I would say that aim for anything in the green area in 10 to 30 or maybe even to the yellow area in our app which up to two maybe 18 something. But it's not uncommon that people get even up to 200 sometimes if they're doing fasting if they're doing doing exercise in the right way. Get very very high values. OK. So that is why I recommend to make a baseline week because you're probably exercising the same day. Every week. And you and you you do same stuff every week sort of. So if you measure yourself every day at the same times you will actually see your heart how your values will change during the week. So after exercise I could get really really really high. I use OK. Interesting. And I and I did two weeks ago I did a one week water fast. This also there is with a water fast with exercise. It's training and on just water and salt. Really. And that got very very high levels of breath acetone. Now this week I started doing it with just enough protein that my body should have I should have like 90 grams of protein every day. So I needed it. I did this with whey protein. But I notice the first second and third day that the levels were not as at all as high as in the water only first thing. This morning I felt really sick. It could be that I am sick but after I took my. My whey protein shake. I felt really really sick vomited. So I think for me milk protein is not. I think reacts to milk protein and that is what I discovered. If I drink coffee with cream minutes my ketosis will rapidly decrease. For many it doesn't decrease to do anything. It just keeps ongoing or even increase of fatty coffee but for me decrease. So I I suspect that for me. Milk protein will release will generate some insulin in my body. So testing is the key. You're not the same man. Everybody's different. So everyone different. And with this device you can test as many times as you like. Yeah yeah and it's I have to say it's really. Kind of a.
[00:43:16] Quantum Leap. One could say between the one I test that two or three years ago and the one day. That the new one that Bluetooth went with the new app and everything. It's very very easy to use and it takes initially about 10 minutes until it's ready. But you could. You can just leave it on. Is there a problem. Can I just let it. Just let it on. The whole time or do I have to start it or restart it.
[00:43:58] No you can leave it on. You can leave this on. It's more on the faucet. We'll get into initializing how might it like less than a minute. Because I I use it a lot. So I just put it on in the morning when I wake up and then I make my coffee and see Adam best and then well as I do a lot of testing I I almost never leave it out of power. Don't it takes a minute before it starts up. So that's the current technology have we are a new sensor that it is will be very rapid. OK. And detect other gases. We will.
[00:44:52] Provide more information about your health yeah. No. Are.
[00:45:02] You finished with the with the inflation part. Yes. OK. Just so I just stopped check. Yes. OK. Yeah. Thank you so much.
[00:45:16] Very very interesting very informative informative and I think guy. I now I am understanding a little bit better. And you did a great job in explaining it.
[00:45:32] If someone has what have after eight years I have an example. If someone had fasted for 18 hours and would have. Breath. Acetone reading of about 4 parts per million and. Blood ketones are one point three.
[00:45:59] So what is it. What would you how would you interpret such.
[00:46:06] Such numbers. Quite normal. I could say it depends on the state of the person's liver. Of course and ability to. Stabilize. At keep. If a person have. Insulin resistance for example high blood glucose that will inhibit. The use of blood ketones. So that's why baby the blood ketones are high. Are pending on the display activity level of the person. It also matters. I could say. The. Level of breadth ketones. Depends. Highly on your.
[00:47:01] Technique. OK also.
[00:47:05] But it doesn't really matter if it's for or if it's 10. More interesting if it's below 10 or more than 20 or 30. Imagine. Thinking of tense the four point three and5.1 is not much difference of course technique. So really you should try. You should include three breaths into it. You get the highest one. But. What you want to see is is is that he says a more. Larger difference and then 18 hours isn't very much. 18 hours is is hardly no fasting at all whereas limiting fasting or fatigue. Yes. If you want high ketones or fasting rapey you have to eat like could in stores and deliver not take approximately three days OK. We need at least three days of just water fast testing clean out your work from the NexGen and start burning fast fat. I have a quite steady then the. Breath. Keep your answer. Three days before they back again is repeated. And to at this. By my analysis testing have shown that if you do strength training if you do slow lifting of weights that actually gets into your muscles and burn. Out. You should do to the reps until you fade. You really burn the sugar in your muscles and you do it in their large muscle groups the squats or. Things like that then you get. Faster into this high level of ketones sort of thing and the exercise. This is a way to treat your ketones. That's how your body is. I mean isn't it a huge person is the lean person instead the old person is the young person. Yeah. What does it do they have had had. And stuff like that. So it all depends. OK but just for.
[00:49:44] Just if you had to say. If I'm looking for. For a number to thrive for. To say OK if I'm. Around. Although if I'm in the in the green area OK I'm probably I'm I'm I'm using some fat or various fat burning could it. Yes. Is that right.
[00:50:11] Yes that is right. I mean a value of one that couldn't and that is probably what anybody can produce. Yeah but if you're up in four to 30 which is considered to be snake toes is definitely in ketosis. OK. But what what is interesting is all that is important is that even if you are in ketosis if it does not guarantee anybody to lose weight. Yeah. I mean I've been having a steady wait for. Four years now. And still and it is. Yeah I mean I might lose one kilo if I do one week of just water. But that's just what my one point two kilos it is done on. So I know how to lose weight. I eat. What I should eat. I don't lose anything. Nobody thinks that this is good for you. Yeah yeah but all my blood markers. Here and it's great. Yeah. There are more important. Markers to look at. Just the. Way.
[00:51:35] It is. Yeah your. Blood markers your lipids are. C reactive protein and stuff. There's much more to look at. They won't see. For example this one and I want to see.
[00:51:51] Yeah. OK. Yeah. Thank you very much. For your time and for the wonderful presentation. I think we got. A lot. Of stuff covered and hopefully. We could get some some light in the darkness. For you. But it's it's definitely a question I get a lot. About about the kit tonics. And I really wanted to inform the people and I think it's it's a really it's a great device you you invented. And since. Yeah. Black is very very expensive. On the other hand and maybe it's not even that. Yeah that often mocking you should really look at or you should should. Yeah. Trek. So I think it's it's a great device. Yeah. Thanks again for your time.
[00:52:52] Thank you.
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